黄笃：像美术界对你的成长经历了解的不是特别多，有必要请你介绍一下自己艺术教育的背景及个人的艺术发展。
陈文令：可以简要介绍一下，我1969年出生在闽南的一个很偏远的小山村里。儿时的贫瘠生活，塑造了我一种很坚韧，很倔强的性格特征。
我儿时是一个无可救药的野孩子，整天敲敲打打，捏泥人，做各种玩具，我没有一样玩具是我父母亲给我买的，都是自己弄出来的。当时的快乐只能自己去寻找、自己去创造。做着做着，也不知道是哪一天，可能为今天种下了一些种子。而后考上厦门工艺美院国画班，毕业前做了一个木雕个展，1992年在厦门市政府某机关工作；后来在中央美院进修雕塑。2004年在北京定居。艺术道路几乎是草根性的野路子，一路跌跌撞撞，坎坎坷坷，其实是“痛并快乐着”。
黄笃：很高兴你邀请我来策划你的个展，请问你为什么在最近有一个做个展的想法呢？
陈文令：因为我来了北京已有四年，主要想给大家做一个阶段性的艺术汇报。
黄笃：你具体是哪一年来北京的呢？
陈文令：我是2004年底来北京的，到今年的十月份就整四年了。对我来说，四年不长也不短，一个人只有朝前走，但没有回头看是不行的。于是，我就有了做个展回头看看的想法，这不仅是对自己艺术才能和经验的检测和展示，而且是对自己不足之处最大程度暴露。个展就是检验自我的阅兵仪式，有助于自我艺术的成长。
黄：你把个展是从一个整体方向来思考，还是从具体艺术观念上来思考呢？
陈文令：在这次个人新作展中，除了一件是2006年参加上海双年展的作品（但这件作品表面效果是重新处理的，且没在北京展出过），其余的雕塑都是今年的新作，它们是比较强调视觉与观念并重的作品，还融入大量的新媒介，如装置、图片、录像等因素的介入。这显然是对我2007年以前的艺术提出全新的挑战。
黄笃：在一般人印象中，你的作品基本上把“猪”作为一个表现对象，或作为一个观念的载体。最近，你作品的每个阶段的转变，都是以“猪”为主的。一直到现在，比如说“物神”仍延续的这种方式。试问在你创作的几个阶段中，“猪”在其中到底起到了一个什么样的作用呢？
陈文令：的确，“猪”在我若干个系列中都有不同的新的发展，它承载了不同的内涵和观念，并在视觉上也有明显的演变与推进。其实，我是用一种借尸还魂的方式把猪扮演成各类的角色，它像一个演员，可能出演乞丐，也能饰演教皇，而不是用一成不变的观念来表述。我总认为符号化也不是问题，主要是看你的艺术符号是不是具有巨大的外延性和拓展性，能够不断地向前拓展。我所唾弃的是一个无病呻吟的重复的小符号。
黄笃：既然你的作品在创作过程中有演变与拓展，那么能否谈谈你作品中不一样的地方在哪里呢？或不同阶段的区别在何处？
陈文令：第一阶段是《幸福生活》，作品气质较拟人化，既温情又幽默，跟现实也比较平衡，夫妻猪表现得尤为突出。第二阶段是《英勇奋斗》，作品气质比较激越、癫狂和无厘头，是对现实经验的一种过滤和放大，如参加您策划的“2007年首届今日文献展”的那一件雕塑。与其说是猪与人的搏斗，不如说是人与物欲的搏击。第三阶段《中国风景》系列作品的气质具有鲜明的公共性，是对公共空间与社会的直接干预。这件雕塑的尺寸巨大，糅合了具象和抽象的双重语言，而且作品与人和环境之间具有互动性，很明显地回避了架上雕塑的价值取向。这样，它又不适合在人造光之下的展示，可以直接安置在户外展出。第四阶段不是以系列方式呈现，而是以雕塑装置方式呈现的，大量的新媒介的介入，脱离了纯粹雕塑概念的约束，是一种扩张性的艺术概念。
黄笃：也就是说，你特有意识的思考问题，除了对以“猪”作为一个对象之外，你还有什么别的想法介入到你的雕塑中呢？
陈文令：我的新作中主要吸收了民俗与时尚的元素。民俗与时尚都不被认为是一种严肃的文化，而是一种次文化或亚文化。我想在自己的作品中通过挪用和转化这些非正统或亚文化的要素来颠覆人的常规审美经验。其实，在当代艺术现象中，很多的当代艺术作品都是被艺术家把原本人们认为不是艺术的做成艺术。这正是艺术的魅力所在。我今年的所有雕塑作品，表面效果都是手工绘制的，很有绘画效果，不采用以前的烤漆和金属锻造技术，强调心灵和手艺的高度统一。再加上互动式的装置、庙会的纪录片，还要邀请车模和茶艺小姐到现场表演。
黄笃：其实，你谈到的是一种艺术方法论，它根本上涉及个人的直觉、判断、选择和过滤的问题，这显然是有一个艺术的拿捏度的问题。我认为在你的作品中可以看到你对亚文化、流行文化和正统文化之间的“度”进行了一个很好的拿捏。然而，在你作品中，具体受哪些民间艺术的影响呢？
陈文令：因为我在美院里受教育的时间较短，而在学院中学到的经验并不多。正像你所知道的，福建省是工艺美术大省，各种民间工艺制品名目繁多，尤其是石雕、木雕、藤艺、漆艺等。几十年甚至几百年来，长盛不衰，这些民俗艺术对我影响挺大的。
黄笃：也就是说，你的方法受启于这些民间艺术的能量，但你才智具体表现出非常个人化的艺术语言，其中的转换或转译在作品中起了非常重要的作用---即过滤和放大。因为在你的作品中，我能看到民间的语言要素，但它又不是纯民间的东西，它是经过你的处理或提升的语言，最终构成了独特的艺术风格。
陈文令：的确这样。我喜欢那种能用通俗易懂的语气把深刻的真理说出来的人，绝不喜欢那种装逼装深刻的人，弄得你满头雾水都听不懂。如《诗经》里风雅颂，风的部分的诗体琅琅上口，通俗易懂。如：窈窕淑女，君子好逑。连农民、文盲都能说出几句；如李白、杜甫的很多诗，再土的人都能吟出几句。伟大的人民性的文艺作品就是具有巨大的社会覆盖面，让很多层面的人都能有看点。
黄笃：是的。人民性是艺术中一个很尖锐的问题。
陈文令：关于艺术的人民性的这个概念是不是雅俗共赏。我们后面可以继续讨论。
黄笃：对。但我觉得你的作品在语言上既有波普语言和超现实语言，又有民间语言，还有学院语言，所以你的作品构成了一个混杂体。那么，你的雕塑到底是一个什么类型或风格，我觉得很难去界定。你说它有纯粹的波普嘛，又有一些民间语言在其中；你说它有纯粹民间语言呢，又有一些波普语言，或有一点超现实的语言。所以，我觉得你的雕塑就是把各种语言吸纳在作品中。
陈文令：总之，我现在艺术面目是我的受教育的背景和成长经历决定的，因为我全日制地在美院雕塑系地地道道学习了一年的时间，学院的经验太薄弱了，只有通过四处游学所得来的经验多点，所以作品里所夹杂的讯息也比较混杂。
黄笃：所以，你的艺术没受到更多的约束？
陈文令：对。什么东西都吃、都喝，营养混杂。如果我是从附中到美院再到研究生都很正规的受教育十几年，可能又是另一个模样了。
黄笃：也许是很定型的。
陈文令：而我的思维和工作方式没有什么惯性，也没有一个强大的艺术标准来制约我。我一直是处于一个自由状态的，其实是一个走野路子的人。
黄笃：我们继续接上刚才谈的人民性的话题。
陈文令：是的。这就是我的作品为什么把所谓的人民性作为关注点。
黄笃：如果把人民性放在当代社会语境中，已难以看到60、70年代的中国政治运动中的人民性了，那个时期人民性体现在一种集体无意识和政治无意识的状态，具体说是一种服务于政治的人民性，而今天的人民性则体现在一种自觉的主体性意识。
陈文令：是的。
黄笃：这里并不是指一种艺术样式，而是指一种文化的“根”，如何让艺术风格和艺术观念与普通人之间建立起新的交流关系。
陈文令：你所说的普通人是不完全等于人民，人民应该包含着普通人，还要更宽泛得多。
黄笃：如果说你认为的人民性是你作品的一个基本的观念出发点，那么你如何来建构这种艺术语言呢？
陈文令：所谓人民性，就我的理解，在以前个人偶像崇拜的年代，人民性是大一统的，为一元化的政治意识形态服务的。其实人民性是包括了整个社会中很多层面的人，甚至包括其他国家的民族。作品通过一种深入浅出的，把严肃的、精英的、深刻的东西，放在一种很喜庆、很幽默，甚至很有娱乐性的表象背后，并通过非常视觉的东西传达出来，安迪•沃霍、杰夫•昆斯都是这类的艺术家。我们看到很多观念的艺术作品，既晦涩难懂，又不平易近人，或要依靠文本辅助引导大众才能进入作品内部。总之，我通过一种视觉化和观念性的作品，它甚至没有标题，没有任何文字注解，让所谓的人民产生阅读作品的欲望。我喜欢作品能为大众提供多种解读的可能性，也就是让作品内部有多重意义指向。
黄笃：你的这个出发点很能说明自己的艺术方法，那么，你如何能把艺术的内在性激发出来？激发出一种观众易于理解的语言呢？
陈文令：我觉得作品内在性和外在性不是绝对分离的。因为我的多数作品是通过表面大量生动细节，营造出一种疯狂的力量感---这就是我作品视觉气场的魅力所在。我的作品表述了欲望狂奔的消费时代中的融合与冲突，充满了一种扩张性的膨胀感。我作品的内在性观念在哪里呢？在我后来的作品里，吸取了中国盛唐的唐三彩极为丰腴和膨胀的语言特点，它与西方古代雕塑完全不一样，而今的中国远胜于盛唐时期的昌盛，于是我选择了猪作为表现对象。我觉得，我做的猪与中国传统雕塑语言有种一脉相承的东西，只是我推进得更加极致化，因为猪的形态更能把体积推向极致化的膨胀。猪在中国人看来，它不仅贪婪，而且好喝懒做，既享受，又快乐，还具有很脏、很色情、很蠢等特征。科学研究说明猪非常聪明。在我看来，猪还有一种速度感的象征，比如说饲料猪，一两个月就能屠宰；另外，猪还是有巨大生产力的表征，五年前，《厦门晚报》报道了一只母猪，一口气生了三十只小猪，我还去拜访了这只英雄母猪。猪是日夜疯狂长膘的动物，表面看是一个好事，但长得越快，被屠宰得也越快。这是猪的“宿命性”。你看猪的种种象征性，以及猪的生长速度，我觉得猪跟中国的现实有着很多暗合之处。猪的形象在中国民俗文化中有极其重要的地位，连汉字“家”下面的“”也是猪的意思嘛！因此，逢年过节猪也是随处可见。我为什么不做猫？为什么不做狗？什么样的动物不能做，偏要拿猪来说事呢？这里面就有我强大的内部的观念指向。我的作品既是视觉的，又是观念的。我必须要把猪这个主题说得很干净，说得很透彻。
黄笃：你对猪的观察、理解和诠释很有意思，尤其是你讲到了对传统丰腴之美的认知与猪的内在联系，进而引伸出作品的社会意义和象征意义及流行性。
陈文令：其实猪的很多特性也很暗合全人类的更多属性，难怪十九世纪英国的大哲学家穆勒曾说：“我宁愿做一个痛苦的苏格拉底，也不想做一头快乐的猪。”可今天的现实是反其道而行的。
黄笃：我觉得在你的作品中有很多“艳俗”风格。当然，我不是指“艳俗”与中国“艳俗”艺术的联系，而是主要谈你的作品与杰夫•昆斯观念的不同。
陈文令：我觉得杰夫•昆斯的艺术形态是美国生活方式决定的。美国物质财富经过几百年的雄厚积累，整个国家的都市化生活方式的程度非常高，消费文化极其盛行。昆斯的作品透露出来的是非常都市化、非常奢华繁复的贵族化的生活方式的产物。
比如他的“性爱题材”的作品，他与自己的艳星妻子扮演成表演的主角，他的作品正是美国现实生活和文化形态的一面镜子。我认为中国的现实跟美国还有很多差别，因为当今的中国是一个极其多元的混杂体。中国是一个农业时代、工业时代、后工业时代、电子时代、互联网时代、消费时代混交在一起的特定转型期。我的作品并非完全像昆斯那样都是都市化的题材，而是把握住了带有浓郁的农耕文化过渡到城市文化的糅合体的特征，同时又保持在很东方、很中国的艺术语言特征。
黄笃：你是否认为自己的作品是一个雕塑概念，还是一个扩张的雕塑概念呢？
陈文令：我觉得应是扩张的雕塑。我的个性必须具有与社会的普遍性发生最大程度的共振关系。也就是说，我注重个人经验能被换化成一种广泛的社会经验，我非常认同波依斯“社会雕塑”的概念，他的个性正是基于扩张的观念，强调了对人的塑造、人的社会参与以及与人分享的思想，否则，过于私密的个性不过是一种孤芳自赏的无病呻吟。
黄笃：请继续说吧。
陈文令：中国的艳俗艺术是脱胎于波普艺术的一条支流，但是，多数的中国艳俗艺术家的作品用过于简单的农民趣味来描述中国现实。我总认为自己与艳俗没有太多的关系，决不能用色彩鲜艳的作品就判断是艳俗艺术。事实上，我的作品主要从民俗文化、时尚文化，以及西方艺术和中国传统艺术中汲取养料。
黄笃：也就是说，你的作品中并没有一个确定的点。
陈文令：是的。
黄笃：是比较模糊的。
陈文令：具体说是多元而混杂。当然，我走一条比较中国化的艺术路子，也不是像85的老艺术家，先从西方艺术体系中去探究或拿来很多经验，然后再慢慢蜕变出来；也不像海外的四大金刚，他们打中国牌，打四大发明，打中国传统文化，这种艺术在西方有很高的有效性。不过我成长的背景不一样，我也只能紧贴中国现实的这片土地，从微观的近距离现实出发，直接就上路了。
当然，我与学院的艺术系统也有一个比较大的差异，因为学院派里多数人会把艺术做得很优雅、很理性、很中立、很讲道理、也很政治，甚至有一种传统文人、士大夫的精神气。这些都是我要放弃的。我是用直截了当的语言说话，我注重作品作用于观众的速度感，反正大家都很忙碌，没空儿与你的作品磨磨蹭蹭。我很认同安迪•沃霍用“伟大的业余”去对抗“伟大的精英”，其实在沃霍“肤浅”背后隐藏一个更伟大的精英，今天的精英标准与先前的精英标准不大一样。
黄笃：也就是说，你的作品里传递出这样的信息---以日常来抵抗宏大，以平淡来消解深刻，以简洁颠覆繁琐。
陈文令：对。
黄笃：但你的艺术语言是很开放的。
陈文令：只有开放，才会有无限的可能性。
黄笃：这就意味着不要墨守成规。
陈文令：绝对不能墨守成规。我对影响过我的老师永远感念，但我不轻易崇拜他们，我的作品让人看不出我的师父是谁最好。对我而言，草根性的成长方式在我内心是根植得非常深的。
黄笃：那么，你怎么理解草根文化？或者说草根文化在中国社会中有什么样的价值和意义？
陈文令：“草根文化”通常用于指官方及学院等制度、系统之外的自发形成并经营运作的艺术创作和艺术生态体系，它的存在大大丰富了整个社会的文化艺术生态。草根文化具有强大的生命力，也比较容易体现社会普通的价值取向。在当代社会中把艺术弄得过于精英化和私密化，干预社会的力量太小，而草根文化的繁荣，可能给没有学院、画院等体制做靠山的艺术青年提供成功的样板和理由。
黄笃：关于这个问题，你已谈的挺清楚了。你在理解艺术与社会的关系上显然与别人不同。
其中一点，就是说不要把艺术搞得晦涩，有的人把艺术搞得晦涩难懂，要么用德里达理的论，要么是福柯的理论，作为自己艺术观念的解释，这当然不是不可以，但最终要用作品说话，不能把理论变成一种嚼头。我觉得你似乎看到了今天的艺术存在的障碍---在当今社会中，当代艺术过于小圈子化，这个小圈子与整个社会之间的交流存在着很大距离。
这涉及了两个方面的问题：一是艺术深度，一是思想深度。如何把艺术扩张到公众中去？或者说艺术的社会性如何扩张到普通观众的视觉范围中？
无论如何，不管是纯粹观念的艺术，还是波普艺术，还是其它的艺术，都有一个与社会、与人交往的问题。那么，如何理解把一个观念看做是一种扩张的艺术？
陈文令：扩张的艺术？
黄笃：扩张的艺术如何渗透到社会领域中去。我想鲍伊斯实际上在他的社会雕塑中已做了一些具体实践与精辟论述。
陈文令：对，他种橡树的行为就很扩张。
黄笃：对。实际上，他的思想观念已超出了他的那个行为本身，也就是说他的思想渗透到对社会中，就恰恰起到了观念的干预作用---他的思想与行为中包含的是对现行的社会制度和系统的改造。
你谈到一个问题，就是说你不想让作品只变成一种少数人的对象，你想让艺术更具有社会的影响力。这种影响力主要想从哪些方面把它推动到社会上去？或通过哪些途径？
陈文令：比如以我自己的艺术实践来说，2001年冬天，我直接把140多件红孩子分别安置在厦门的珍珠湾海边沙地上、灯塔上及小船上展示。红孩儿、黄沙滩、蓝天、碧海、绿草地交相辉映，呈现出红黄蓝绿的色彩关系。作品与环境融为一体，潮起潮落、阳光的走向、观众的互动都成为我作品的一种媒介，展览远远出乎我的意料，观众中有市长，有社会上的各界知名人士，学生，民工等。这样的展示行动可能直接作用于社会，也就是对社会的干预。
黄笃：所以，这就体现了你雕塑的社会性，而雕塑作为一种艺术媒介，是一种具有创造可能性的媒介，那么，这种可能性体现在哪儿呢？
陈文令：我觉得当代艺术有这个责任对社会各阶层尤其是底层人的美育作用。
黄笃：从某种意义上来说，雕塑是对人的塑造也是对人的改造。
陈文令：是。
黄笃：当我们理解鲍伊斯“社会雕塑”的时候，不要把“社会雕塑”理解成一种鲍伊斯模式。
陈文令：鲍伊斯的艺术观念对中国五、六十年代出生的艺术家产生了深远影响。
黄笃：在一般情况下，理解的鲍伊斯模式就是种树，这是一种表面化的理解，实际上他的艺术思想在内涵和外延上都有无限的发展能量。我想，就像马克思主义理论在全球的发展一样，马克思主义理论也并不是变成一种单一的模式，而是被后来发展成了形形色色和各种各样的马克思主义。
陈文令：当然，理论与现实的相互结合。
黄笃：所以，你的作品中的这种社会性，也是体现了一种与福建区域文化、语境的关系，这是挺有意思的地方。
陈文令：十几年前，中国有四个经济特区，现在全国到处都是经济特区模式。我觉得当时深圳和厦门是中国社会现实的缩影，另外，闽南文化很有特色。于是，我把区域文化转化成为具有国际化的特征。以前中国艺术家都从文本上学国际化的语言，而今中国艺术家的作品已是构成国际化艺术语言的重要组成部分。
黄笃：许多认知你是通过你早期的雕塑“红孩儿”，你是在什么时候创作“红孩儿”的？
陈文令：萌生于1998年的想法，1999年进入全面的创作状态，做到了2001年底出炉示人。之前想来北京搞展览，投路无门，我拜访过很多艺术家，很多策展人，十几天下来发现没有我的立足之地。灰头土脸回到厦门，一气之下，野性发作，用农民起义的方式在厦门海边做个展，并且获得了很好的效果。2002年在广州参加“中国艺术三年展”，从此“柳暗花明又一村”。
黄笃：那么，你还有一个从“小红人”到“猪”的创作之路，什么原因造成你的这种转变过程呢？
陈文令：从小红人转变到猪是这样的。我当时去参加彭德、李小山在广州策划的那个“中国艺术三年展”后，作品被媒体关注的非常多，应该是抢尽了风头。但是我觉得这个风头背后也有一种危机，我总感觉这套作品离现实问题有点远。于是，我四个月没有做任何作品，比较系统的读了一些书，直接和间接地发现了很多中国现实性的问题。我应该以一种近距离的、近聚焦的视觉来看待自己的艺术与现实社会的关系。后来决心另辟蹊径重新上路，最终选择了“猪”作为我新的开始。
黄笃：如果把你的作品放在中国当代艺术的潮流或发展谱系中看，你认为自己处于一个什么样的坐标？
陈文令：我是从边缘的草根地带中生成的，与隋建国、刘建华、向京都是不一样的。隋建国是在80年代末期，就已很深入地探索西方当代艺术的方法论，主要依靠观念说事，而且观念变幻多端。刘建华是通过糅合观念与中国元素打出来的。而向京是从中国的学院体系走出来的，她改良学院的雕塑语言，用一种非常个人化的艺术语言站在世人面前。而我并没有抓住他们的尾巴亦步亦趋地走，那是没有出路的。
黄笃：2000年以后，尤其是2004年以后，中国当代艺术市场非常火爆。我想整个艺术市场的异军突起，并不是说这个市场是在这几年积累的结果，而是整个中国经济快速发展的缩影，换句话，中国当代艺术的发展是中国经济发展的阶段性必然爆发。
有一些著名艺术家在艺术市场上已占有主导性。我想这个市场也不是他们一天得到的，而是他们几十年积累的结果。我想问一个问题，作为一个艺术家，也是一个在市场中存在的艺术家，你怎么处理艺术与市场之间的关系？
陈文令：对我而言，我是很强调个人艺术独立性和先导性，绝不跟着市场走。所以我决不轻易跟画廊签约，如果签的这个画廊很商业，那你就签了一份你必须去上吊的绝命书。在中国，能对艺术家的学术很负责的画廊寥若星辰。
王鲁炎就说过，艺术家反市场，如果反得好，反得准，那最后更会被市场吃掉。天天跟着市场跑才没有好市场。我觉得中国的有些人越来越虚荣，在拍卖市场大肆炒作，明明只能卖三百元，非炒到三千元，在这种虚荣背后反而暴露极大的不自信。您说是不是？
黄笃：我第一次见到你是哪一年？
陈文令：应是2004年。
黄笃：冬天吧。
陈文令：是冬天，认识您之前，好多人认为您很傲慢。接触了您之后，觉得您其实很随和的。您还给了我讲了一个关于雕塑情景的事，如一个婴儿雕塑放在白色底座上和放在婴儿车里面的感觉是不一样的。我在北京参加第一个展览就是参加你策划的展览。
黄笃：那个展览发生在将台路的一个办公室里，展览名字叫“无界”。
陈文令：我刚来北京的时候很不自信，不知京城的水有多深，一开始投石问路，摸着石头过河。经过四年的奋斗，我相信自己了。在中国，北京是适合我呆的城市。
黄笃：我觉得你从2005年以后，参加我在办公室策划的那个展览后，就有一些学术上的变化。然后接着是上海双年展，你特意创作了一件非常大的雕塑装置。
陈文令：是“英勇奋斗”那一件，8米高，已被澳大利亚悉尼的一个美术馆收藏。
黄笃：去年（2007年）我策划了“首届今日文献展”，我为“今日文献”选择你两件作品---一个作品在外面，一个作品在里面，这两件作品都挺有张力的，很有戏剧性和梦幻的超现实的感觉。它们很受观众的欢迎。今年你会有新作品参加上海当代博览会的主题展及第三届南京三年展。
陈文令：还有韩国釜山双年展，西班牙第三届塞维利亚国际当代艺术双年展，艺术北京主题展等。
黄笃：都提供了一些新的作品。
陈文令：今年在亚洲艺术中心的个展是今年参加重要展览的所有作品的汇总，是我在北京的第一个个展。
黄笃：那么，你对你未来有什么想法？
陈文令：人生是无法完全按人意设计的，我不喜欢太设计性的人生，边走边看调整就成了。
黄笃：你对未来在艺术上有什么思考呢？
陈文令：我在艺术的维度上应该会拓得越来越宽。
黄笃：你的意思就是不要把它纯粹变成一个雕塑语言。
陈文令：对，不仅仅是一个雕塑语言。
黄笃：可能是一个跨学科的、跨媒介的。
陈文令：一定是跨媒介的。包括创作的方式，展示的方式，传播的方式等等，用一种绝对开放的姿态探索我的未来。
日期：2008年8月6日下午13：40：05
地点：望京，黄笃工作室
Mixed Realism
---A Conversation between Huang Du and Chen Wenling
Time: Aug. 6th, 2008 13:40 p.m.
Location: Huang Du's Studio, Wangjing
Huang Du: The art Circle knows little about your life experience; therefore, it is necessary for you to introduce your background in art education and your artistic development.
Chen Wenling: I'll make a brief introduction. I was born in 1969. My home was in a remote mountain village in the southern part of Fujian Province where my childhood experience of poverty molded strong will and stubbornness into my character.
I was a mischievous child, monkeying around every day and making clay figurines and various toys. I made all my playthings rather than asking my parents for them. Back then, one had to rely on one's own hands and own creation to make one's day. This childhood experience in making toys may have prepared me for what I am now. Later on, I was admitted by Xiamen Arts and Crafts College to study traditional Chinese ink painting. My graduation exhibition was woodcarvings. Starting in 1992, I worked as a civil servant in Xiamen, and afterward I attended advanced studies on sculpture in China Central Academy of Fine Arts. I settled down in Beijing in 2004. My journey towards art is typical of grass-root artists, full of frustration and setbacks. In fact, my exploration in art is one filled with pain and joy at the same.
Huang Du: I am really glad to be the curator of your solo exhibition; then why do you want to hold a solo exhibition lately?
Chen Wenling: Because I have been in Beijing for four years and I want to present an artistic summary of what I have done in this period of time.
Huang Du: At exactly what time did you come to Beijing?
Chen Wenling: I came to Beijing at the end of 2004, and it will be four full years by this October.. To me, four years are neither a long period of time nor a short one. A person could not make it by just advancing all along without an examination of his past. So I got the idea of staging a solo show and exam what I did in the past. It is not only an examination and showcase of one's artistic capacity and experience, but also an exposure of one's defects to the maximum. The solo exhibition is like a military parade. It is a way of self-examination which brings progress to one's development in art.
Huang Du: Do you conceive this exhibition as a demonstration of your whole understanding or art or just some concrete conceptions art?
Chen Wenling: All the works exhibited in this show, except one piece of work which was shown in Shanghai Biennial (the surface of it has been retreated and it has never been shown in any exhibitions in Beijing), are new works from this year, emphasizing both vision and conception with various new mediums, such as installations, photos, videos etc, integrated in them. All together, these works pose a brand-new challenge to my art before 2007.
Huang Du: Most people's impressions on your works are that, the image of "pig" is your basic subject matter or a carrier for the certain conception. Recently, "pig" dominates your works when your art is transforming into a new stage. Till now, this pattern is still going on in your works, for example, in your work Wu Shen (God of Materialism). My question is that in the different phases of your artistic creation, what role exactly does the image "pig" play?
Chen Wenling: Absolutely, "pig" has different developments in several series of my works. It embodies various connotations and conceptions, and undergoes apparent evolution and progress visually. Actually, by making "pig" play different roles, I express the same symbol in different ways. "Pig" is like an actor: it could be a beggar but it could also be the Pope. I always believe that symbolization is not a problem as long as the symbol itself contains great extensionality and expansibility and keeps on expanding forward. What I despise is a repetitive petty symbol that makes a fuss about nothing.
Huang Du: Since you have gone through evolution and expansions in your works, could you talk about the differences between your works? Or how your works differ from each other when they are created in different stages of your artistic pursuit?
Chen Wenling: At the first stage of my creation, the Happy Life series, my work is characterized by personification; it conveys warmth and humor and achieves a relative balance with reality. The image of "pig couple" explicitly demonstrates these features. At the second stage, the Valliant Struggle series, my works are given a temper of infuriation, insanity and nonsense, which could be viewed as a filtration and magnification of the reality. For example, my sculpture in the "1st Today Documents" exhibition held by the Today Art Museum under your direction could be interpreted as the wrestle between the human beings and their material desires instead of pigs and men. At the third stage, the China Scene series with its apparent publicity is a direct interference to the public space and the society. This gigantic sculpture is fused with the double talk between concrete and abstract language. The interaction among the work, the man and the environment apparently avoids the value tendency on the shelf sculpture. Therefore, this work is suitable to be exhibited outdoors directly rather than in the lamplight indoor. Works created in the fourth stage do not come in series. They are presented as installations. With varieties of new mediums involved, these sculpture works disentangle themselves from the restriction of the pure-sculpture concept. They embody the artistic conception of extension.
Huang Du: That is to say, you are consciously contemplating these problems; do you introduce any other ideas in your sculptures besides "pig"?
Chen Wenling: I absorbed elements of folk art and fashion in my new works. Both folk art and fashion are considered as subcultures instead of the high culture. I seek to subvert men's conventional aesthetic experiences by appropriating and transforming elements from these subcultures in my works. Actually, among contemporary artistic phenomenon, lots of works are the result of the artist's successful transformation of something that is not commonly viewed as art into works of art. This is where the enchantment of arts lies. The surface of all my sculptures made year is hand-painted, instead of the former techniques of baking varnish and metal forging, to stress on the extreme harmony of soul and handcraft of the artist. Interactive installation and documentary of temple fairs are also a part of my installations. Car models and Chinese tea ceremony performers are also invited to give live shows.
Huang Du: Actually, you are referring to an artistic methodology that fundamentally concerns an individual's instinct, judgment and filtration. Apparently this is a problem about where to draw the line of art. I think that you have done a great job in balancing elements from subculture, pop culture and high culture in your works. However, which folk arts especially influence your works?
Chen Wenling: Because I did not stay very long in an art college, I learned little from the academics. However, as you know Fujian is a major province for arts and crafts, where various form of folk arts exists, especially stone carving, wood carving, cane crafts, lacquer crafts and so on. These folk arts thrive in Fujian for tens even hundreds of years and influence me a lot.
Huang Du: Could I express it in this way that your approach to art is inspired by the energy in folk art, but your ability and intelligence presents an extremely personal language of art, in which the conversion or translation, namely filtration and magnification, plays an important role in your works? The reason is that I can see elements of folk language in your creation, but they are not pure folk arts. It is a kind of folk language treated and elevated by you which eventually forms a unique style of art.
Chen Wenling: I believe so. I appreciate those who could convey a profound truth through simple expressions instead of those who put on airs and pretend to be profound, and their remarks confuse you more instead of clarify the question. Take the Chinese classic Book of Song for example. This book contains three parts, Airs of States, Odes and Hymns. The Airs of State is overwhelmingly readable and understandable, containing sentences like "Lovely is this noble lady, fit bride for our lord." Even peasants and illiterates can recite lines like this. Another example is that many poems written by the famous Chinese poets Li Bai and Du Fu could be heard reading by people with the lowest social status. Great popular art works have the ability to enjoy a large social following, enabling people from different social backgrounds to find his or her own point of interest.
Huang Du: That is correct. Popularity is an acute problem in art.
Chen Wenling: we can talk more about the question whether popularity in art can suit both refined and popular tastes later.
Huang Du: OK. In fact, I think the language of your works is a combination of Pop language, surrealistic Language, folk language as well as academic language; that is to say, your work is a hybrid. I find it hard to define what style or type your sculptures really belong to: if I say they are pure Pop, there are traces of folk language in it, but if I dub them as pure folk, there are traces of Pop language and surrealistic language in it Therefore, I would rather say your sculpture contains all kinds of art languages.
Chen Wenling: All in all, my current artistic outlook is determined by my education background and life experience. Because I only spent one year in an art college as a full-time student of sculpture, my experience with the academy is too weak. So my experience of art comes more from informal learning; that's why the message in my works is a mixture.
Huang Du: So your art is free from further restricts?
Chen Wenling: That's right. My art is like a person who eats and drinks any thing hence absorbs mixed nutrition. My works of art would be different if I had received formal school education from an art high school then an art college and all the way to post-graduate studies.
Huang Du: Probably your sculpture would be stereotypical in that case.
Chen Wenling: There is no inertia in my manners of thinking and working and I have no formidable artistic standard to place any restrictions on me. I've always been in a free state. To be frank, I am unorthodox.
Huang Du: Let's get back to the topic of popularity.
Chen Wenling: Sure. That is why I highlight the so-called popularity as the focal point of my works.
Huang Du: If placed under the contemporary social context, popularity is very different from what it was in the political movements in China in the 1960s and 1970s. Back then, popularity represented a state of collective unconsciousness and political unconsciousness, specifically, a type of popularity that has a political aim. Whereas the popularity today presents itself as a conscious sense of subjectivity.
Chen Wenling: I agree with you.
Huang Du: We are not talking about a pattern of art here but rather a cultural "root", that is, how to establish new communication between common people and artistic styles and conceptions.
Chen Wenling: The "common people" you just mentioned is not completely equal to the notion of populace, which contains the former and has a wider range of significance.
Huang Du: How do you construct your artistic language if the popularity you believe in is the point-of-departure for your works?
Chen Wenling: According to my understanding, the so-called popularity was uniform and served for a unified political ideology in the era of personal worship. Actually, popularity covers people from all walks of life, even including people in other nations. Explaining something complex in a simple way, placing serious, elite and profound ideas behind festival, humorous even entertaining representations and conveying these ideas in a none-visual way is what artists like Andy Warhol and Jeff Koons do. We've seen many conceptional works of art which are hard to understand and appreciate and rely on the textual assistance to guide the people into it. To sum up, I want to create a type of conceptional works that are visualized. Even without titles or captions, they could arouse a desire to read the work from the so-called "people". I prefer my works to provide various possibilities of interpretation to the people, that is, I want my works to have multiple significations internally.
Huang Du: Your point of departure offers an excellent explanation to your artistic methodology. But my question is that how can you stimulate the internality in art and transform it into a comprehensible language to the spectators?
Chen Wenling: I recognize that there is no absolute separation between internality and externality. My works create a sense of fanatic power through massive details on the surface, which is the charm of my aura of vision. My works express the integration and conflict at the age of consumerism when desire is running at a maximum speed and they are also filled with a sense of extensional swelling. But where does the internality of my works come from? In my later creations, I appropriate the textual characteristic of plumpness and swelling from the Tang Tricolour Potteries produced at the height of the Tang dynasty, which are so different form western classical sculptures. Contemporary China enjoys a higher level of prosperity than Tang Dynasty; that's why I chose pig as my subject matter. I think the pig I made has something in common with the traditional Chinese sculpture language; only that I put it to the extremes. The pig in the Chinese tradition is regarded as greedy, gluttonous, lazy, dirty, horny and stupid as well as content and happy. While scientific research has proven that pigs are very clever. In my eyes, pig is also a symbol of speed. For example, it only takes one month or two for a feedlot pig to be fattened and. In addition, pigs can also be regarded as a sign of enormous productivity. Five years ago, Xiamen Evening Newspaper carried a story about a sow that had given birth to thirty piglets at one time. I even paid a visit to this heroic sow. Pigs are crazy animal which puts on weight day and night, which it good superficially, but the faster they grows, the sooner they would be slaughtered. That is the destiny of pigs. The various symbolisms of pigs and their speed of growth coincide with the reality of China. The image of pig plays an important role in Chinese folk culture as well. Even the Chinese character for home has a part with the meaning of pig. The image of pig can be seen everywhere in Chinese festivals. Why I selected pig as my subject matter instead of cats, dogs or other animals? It is because the image of pig carries a powerful internal signification. My works are both visual and conceptional. I have to exhaust the theme of pig.
Huang Du: Your observation, understanding and interpretation of pig are very interesting, especially the part you talk about the correlation between pig and the traditional Chinese concept of the beauty of chubbiness, which leads to the discussion of the social and symbolic significance of your work and its popularity.
Chen Wenling: Actually, many features of pig coincide with that of human. No wander Mill, the great British philosopher of 19th century, said that "It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied." But today's reality goes against this.
Huang Du: I think there are a lot of "gaudy art" elements in your work. Of course I'm not indicating the relationship between "gaudy art" in general and Chinese "gaudy art" in the 1990s, I mainly want to talk about the difference between your work and that of Jeff Koons.
Chen Wenling: I think the artistic form of Jeff Koons is determined by the American life style. After amassing fortune for two hundred years, the USA has a very high level of urbanized life style. Its consumer culture is in full swing. Koons' work is the product of a very urbanized and very luxurious aristocratic way of life.
Take his works with the theme of sex for example: Koons and his porn star wife dress up as leading roles in a performance. His work is a mirror reflecting the real life and culture formation of the USA. Because China is a diversified hybrid today, I think there are a lot of differences between its reality and America's. China is going through a special period of transformation which is a hodge-podge of agricultural era, industrial era, post-industrial era, electronic era, the age of Internet and consumerism. I don't focus on the urban theme in my works like Koons does but grasped the features of a jumble which is formed by the transition from an agricultural culture to an urban one. At the same time, I also manage to maintain a very oriental and Chinese artistic language.
Huang Du: What do you think about your works, a traditional concept of sculpture or an expanded one?
Chen Wenling: I think it's an expanded concept of sculpture. My personality must echo the social universality in the highest degree. That is to say, I focus on the feasibility of transforming personal experience to a kind of universal social experience. I highly agree with Beuys's notion of "Social Sculpture". His character is exactly based on the concept of expansion, emphasizing the thought of molding people, the idea of people's social participation and the notion of sharing with others. Otherwise, a character that is too private is nothing but making a fuss about an imaginary illness and narcissism.
Huang Du: Please go on.
Chen Wenling: The Chinese gaudy art is a branch of Pop art, but most of Chinese gaudy artists describe the reality of China with simple farmer's taste in their works. I always think that I don't have much to do with the gaudy. You can't categorize a work as gaudy just because it's brightly colored. In fact, my work is mainly inspired by folk culture, fashion culture, western art and Chinese traditional art.
Huang Du: That is to say, you don't have a specific point in your work.
Chen Wenling: Yes.
Huang Du: Your art is a bit vague.
Chen Wenling: To be specific, it is diversified and hybridized. Of course, my approach in art is thoroughly Chinese unlike the old artists from mid 80s, who first research or borrow much experience from the western art system, and then under go a gradual metamorphosis. Nor am I like the overseas "Four Guardian Warriors" (four famous overseas Chinese artists). China, Four Great Inventions and traditional Chinese culture are just their trump cards. This kind of art enjoys a high level of following in western countries. But I come from a different background; I have to stay tightly in touch with the Chinese reality and start my art directly from the microscopic proximity to real life.
Certainly, I differ greatly from the academic art system as well. Most people from the academic group would make their art very elegant, rational, neutral, reasonable and political; even endow it with a spirit which belongs to traditional Chinese literati and scholar-bureaucrats. These are exactly what I want to give up. As everybody is very busy and has no time for a work of art that beats around the bush, I tend to express myself with direct language and pay attention to the speed my creations work on the spectators. I highly agree with Andy Warhol's action of using the "Great amateur" to confront the "Great Elite". Actually there is a greater elite hiding behind Warhol's "shallowness". The standard of what is elite is not the same as before.
Huang Du: That is to say, the message from your works is using the mundane to resist the grand, utilizing the plain to deconstruct the profound and adopting the concise to subvert the sophisticated.
Chen Wenling: Right.
Huang Du: But your language of art is very open.
Chen Wenling: Only by remaining open can one has infinite possibilities.
Huang Du: Which means one needs to think outside the box?
Chen Wenling: Absolutely. To teachers who have influenced me, I always feel grateful. But I don't worship them easily. It is best if people cannot infer who my teacher is from my work. To me, the developing pattern of "grass roots" art is deeply rooted in my heart.
Huang Du: So, what's your understanding of grass roots culture? In other words, what's the value and meaning of grass roots culture in Chinese society?
Chen Wenling: "Grass roots culture" normally refers to artistic creation and an ecological system of art which is formed spontaneously and operates outside the institution and system of the government and academy. Its existence has greatly enriched the artistic and cultural ecology of the whole society. Grass roots culture possesses a great vitality and easily mirrors the common value orientation of a society. At present, art is made too elitist and private to interfere with the society. What's more, the prosperity of grass roots culture may offer a pattern and reason for success to young artists who have no system like art colleges or painting academies to fall back on.
Huang Du: You have talked very clearly bout this question. Apparently your understanding of the relationship between art and society, you are different from that of the others.
One point is that art should not be made too hard to understand. Some people like to use the theory of Derrida or Foucault as the explanation for their conception of art thus obscures their art. Of course there is room for theories in art, but eventually you must express yourself through your works. Theories can not be turned into fancy gibberish. I think it seems that you have detected the obstacle to the existence of art today, i.e. at the present, contemporary art is limited to a small circle, which is distant from the whole society in terms from communication.
Questions of two aspects are involved here: one is the depth of art and the other is the depth of thought. How to expand art to the public? In other words, how to expand the sociality of art to the visual range of the common audience?
In any case, no matter art of sheer concept or Pop art, or other kinds of art, they all have a problem of communicating with the society and the people. So how can we understand the notion of treating a concept as a kind of art of expansion?
Chen Wenling: Art of expansion?
Huang Du: How to permeate art of expansion through the social domains? I think actually Beuys's has made some specific practice and brilliant observations in his theory of social sculpture.
Chen Wenling: Right. His behavior of planting oak tree is very typical in illustrating this point.
Huang Du: Yes. Actually, his thought has gone beyond the behavior itself. That is to say, the filtration of his thought into the society intervenes in the way a concept would act. What contained in his thought and behavior is the alteration of present social rules and system.
You have talked about a question that you don't want to make your work exclusive. You want to endow your work of art with more social influence. So through what aspects or ways you plan to assert this kind of social influence?
Chen Wenling: Take my own art practice for example. In the winter of 2001, I put more than 140 red boy sculptures directly on the beach, beacon and small boats near Pearl Bay, Xiamen. Red boys, yellow beach, azure sky, blue sea and green grass contrasted beautifully against each other, showing a colored relation among red, yellow, blue and green. The works integrated themselves into the environment. The rise and fall of tide, the movement of the sun and the interaction with the audience all became a kind of medium of my work. The success of the exhibition was totally unexpected. The audience included the mayor, students, migrant workers and famous people from all walks of life. Exhibitions like this may directly influence the society, i.e. it can intervene in the society.
Huang Du: So, this event reflects the sociality of your sculpture. But, sculpture is a kind of art medium which is capable of creating possibility. So what exactly is this possibility?
Chen Wenling: I think it is the responsibility of contemporary art to offer aesthetic education to people from all social backgrounds, especially those from lower classes.
Huang Du: To a certain extent, sculpture is able to mold people as well as reforming them.
Chen Wenling: Yes.
Huang Du: When we are trying to comprehend Beuys' "Social Sculpture", we should not restrict "Social Sculpture" to Beuys' pattern only.
Chen Wenling: Chinese artists born in 1950s and 1960s are deeply influenced by Beuys' conception of art.
Huang Du: Normally, Beuys's pattern is comprehended as tree-planting which is an oversimplified understanding. Actually, his thought of art has infinite energy of expanding both internally and externally. I think it's the same as the global development of Marxism theory: instead of turning into a single pattern, Marxism has developed into various types.
Chen Wenling: Sure, it is the result of the combination between theory and reality.
Huang Du: So the sociality of your work also embodies a correlation with the regional culture and context of Fujian. This is an interesting point.
Chen Wenling: More than ten years ago, China had only four special economic zones. But today, economic polices first experimented in the special economic zones are adopted all over the country. I think at that time, Shenzhen and Xiamen are microcosms of Chinese social reality. Besides, Southern Fujian Culture is very special, so I try to give a regional culture some internationalize features. In the past, Chinese artists learned the language of internationalization from books, while artists today have made their works as one important part of an internationalized language of art.
Huang Du: Many people begin to know you through your early sculpture, "Red Boy". When did you create it?
Chen Wenling: I first had the idea in 1998 and I came into a wholehearted creation of the sculpture in the next year. At the end of 2001, the work was finished. At first, I wanted to stage an exhibition in Beijing but found no way to start. I had visited a lot of artists and exhibition planners, but after more than ten days, I found out that there was no space for me in Beijing. Humiliated and frustrated, I returned to Xiamen. With a surge of temper, I staged a solo show on the beach of Xiamen, just like a peasant who resorts to rebelling when he had no luck with the established institutions. The show was very well received. Then in 2002, I joined the "Triennial of Chinese art" in Guangzhou, after that, my career advanced smoothly.
Huang Du: Well, you changed the focus of your creation from "Red Boy" to "Pig", why?
Chen Wenling: The change comes like this. When I joined the "Triennial of Chinese art" organized by Peng De and Li Xiaoshan in Guangzhou, my works attracted great attention from the media: I actually stole the thunder from all the other works also displayed in the exhibition. But I sensed a crisis behind all the success, I have always felt this series of work was a little far from reality. So I didn't produce any new works in four months, but conducted a systematically reading of books. Directly and indirectly, I found many practical problems of China. I decided that I should observe the relationship between my art and social reality from a close proximity and with close focus. After that, I decided to start all over again and finally chose "pig" as the new beginning.
Huang Du: Placed in the tide or developing pedigree of Chinese contemporary art, where do you think you are?
Chen Wenling: Different from Sui Jianguo, Liu Jianhua and Xiang Jing, I grew up from a marginal grass roots zone. Sui Jianguo had explored the methodology of contemporary western art deeply in late 1980s. He mainly depends on conceptions to express himself and his conceptions are subject to constant change.. Liu Jianhua found his way through mixing conceptions with Chinese elements, while Xiang Jing came out from China's academic system. She improved the sculpture language of the academy and faced the people with an extremely personalized language of art. But I didn't follow them step by step: doing so would leads to a dead end.
Huang Du: After 2000, especially after 2004, the market for Chinese contemporary art is very hot. In my opinion, the sudden prosperity in art market as a whole is not the result of the accumulation of the market in recent years, but rather a microcosm of the fast development of Chinese economy. In another word, the development of Chinese contemporary art is an inevitable periodical boom of the Chinese economic development.
Some famous artists have won leading positions in art market. In my view, they don't take the market in one day but through the accumulation for dozens of years. Then, my question is—as an artist, who is a part of the art market, how do you deal with the relationship between art and market?
Chen Wenling: For me, I emphasis the independence and enlightening effect of personal art, and I will never follow the market blindly. Therefore, I won't sign contracts with a gallery imprudently. If it is a very commercial gallery, then the contract is actually the noose around your neck. In China, there are few galleries that are responsible for the artists' artistic pursuit.
Wang Luyan has observed that artists have to stand up against the market and if one artist finds a good point to resist the market, he or she will be extremely well received in the market eventually. Following every change the market ends up falling out of it. I think some Chinese artists are becoming vainer and vainer. For example, they hype their works in the auction market so that some thing worth 300 RMB can be sold at 3000 RMB. This vanity exposes a extreme lack of confidence in these people.
Huang Du: When did I meet you for the first time?
Chen Wenling: It should be 2004.
Huang Du: In winter?
Chen Wenling: Yes. Before I know you, many people think that you are very arrogant. After I came in contact with you, I thought that you are very easy-going. I remember you told me some thing about sculpture scene, that is, it feels very different whether the sculpture of a baby is placed on a white base or in a baby carriage. The first exhibition I attended in Beijing was a show under your direction.
Huang Du: That exhibition was in one office of Jiangtai Road, named "No Boundary".
Chen Wenling: When I came to Beijing, I was not very confident. Unfamiliar with Beijing's situation, so I treaded cautiously. After four years of hard work, I now begin to trust myself. In China, Beijing is the place for me.
Huang Du: I think that after 2005, that is, after the exhibition in the office, you have some changes in your art. Then, you created a very huge sculpture for Shanghai Biennale.
Chen Wenling: That is Valliant Struggle. It is 8 meters high and has been acquired by a museum in Sydney, Australia.
Huang Du: Last year (2007), I planned The First Today Document exhibition, and I chose two of your sculptures---one was place inside the door, the other was installed in the open air. Both the works are full of tension, dramatic and dreamily surrealistic, so they were much appreciated by the audience. This year, your new works will appear in the ShContemporary and The Third Nanjing Triennial.
Chen Wenling: I will also attend Busan Biennial, The Third International Biennial of Contemp. Art, at Sevilla, Spain, Art Beijing and so on.
Huang Du: Your new works will appear in all these exhibitions.
Chen Wenling: The solo exhibition in Asia Art Center is a collection of all the works that have been included in important exhibitions this year, which is also my first solo exhibition in Beijing.
Huang Du: So, do you have any plans for the future?
Chen Wenling: I believe that life cannot be designed completely according to human wishes. I don't like life that is designed. I shall just adjust myself as I move forward.
Huang Du: Any thoughts about your art in the future?
Chen Wenling: My dimensions in art should become wider and wider.
Huang Du: You mean that your art will not restricted to being a sculpture language.
Chen Wenling: Yes, it should be more than that.
Huang Du: Maybe an interdisciplinary and a cross-media art.
Chen Wenling: It must be a cross-media art, like the way of creation, the means of display and the method of transmission, etc. I definitely shall explore my future with an open attitude.